Home > Money Fraud Charges > Federal Government Throws Its Weight at Individuals Who Dare to Defraud a Bank, Rather Than Prosecuting Bankers for Defrauding Homeowners, Investors and Courts

Federal Government Throws Its Weight at Individuals Who Dare to Defraud a Bank, Rather Than Prosecuting Bankers for Defrauding Homeowners, Investors and Courts

August 30, 2013

The Real Housewives of New Jersey – The Fears Come Out

In the video clip above from season 5 episode 14, Joe Giudice admits in front of everyone in a therapy session at Miraval Spa in Arizona in March 2013 that he is worried about legal issues (at the time, he was dealing with identity theft charges in the state of New Jersey for allegedly obtaining a driver’s license with his brother’s ID – the federal indictment for money fraud was not handed down until July 29, 2013, four months after episode 14 was taped). Joe tells the therapist: “I just think everybody has a little fear of something, you know what I mean? I just got lawyers involved and stuff like that.”

The following is a partial transcript of another video clip (below) from season 5 episode 14, where Teresa and Joe discuss the earlier therapy session.

Teresa to Juicy: I have to say that was really big of you to say that, like, in front of everyone, what your fear was.

Teresa’s TH: It takes a man to talk about issues that they normally don’t talk about. My husband is a truthful guy, and he doesn’t deserve any of this.

Joe: Yeah, you know, it’s always there. You get up thinking about it. And, so, um, when you let that out, you’re a little relieved, you know what I mean?

Joe: It’s not like I’m a fuckin’ criminal, where I’ve been in prison, you know, a million fuckin’ times. Never killed nobody, never fuckin’ did anything, you know, to hurt anybody, so I don’t belong there and I don’t fuckin’ wanna go there.

The Real Housewives of New Jersey – Joe Doesn’t Belong in Prison

Joe Giudice is distraught at the idea of having to go to prison. Meanwhile, the banks—who have lied to homeowners, courts, investors, and bankruptcy trustees—have escaped prosecution entirely (most of the mortgage brokers have avoided jail, too).

The amount of false documents peddled by the banks in various foreclosure fraud scandals easily number in the millions, if not tens of millions. And yet no bank executive faces a maximum penalty of 180 years in prison for mortgage fraud the way the Giudices do.

Eleven leading banks illegally foreclosed on as many as 244,000 borrowers, who had either not actually defaulted on their loans, were approved for a loan modification, or were supposed to be protected by various federal laws. And in nearly all of these cases, the banks proved their standing to foreclose in court by presenting false documents, exactly what the Giudices stand accused of.

Mega-banks like JPMorgan Chase have been accused in class action lawsuits of producing false evidence in “tens of thousands” of bankruptcy proceedings. Banks have been found to systematically lie to bankruptcy courts, yet they commit these crimes with impunity.

During the Obama Administration’s two terms, a commitment to fighting mortgage fraud has mostly meant a commitment to prosecuting people who lie to banks. In the case of the Giudices, four separate agencies contributed to their indictment – the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) Inspector General, the IRS, the U.S. Bankruptcy Trustee and the U.S. Attorney’s office in New Jersey. Are the resources spent on prosecuting the Giudices outsized compared to the resources spent on prosecuting bankers for defrauding homeowners, investors and courts? I don’t see how you could say no.

But no bank executive has spent a day in jail for systematic abuses which, by the way, helped sink the economy and prolong the misery of the foreclosure crisis. If banks get cited for their myriad crimes at all, they buy their way out of trouble with settlements for negligible sums.

The focus on small fry in financial fraud enforcement serves two purposes. First, it gives the Justice Department a talking point, however cockeyed, to prove their worthiness in prosecuting financial malfeasance… this sends a subtle yet chilling message that the federal government will throw its weight at anyone who dares to defraud a bank, rather than securing justice against banks that defraud customers.

A high-profile indictment like the Giudices will produce lots of headlines and send the message loud and clear that cheating banks is not tolerated in America. The federal government is telling us that the real “irresponsible” parties of the financial crisis are homeowners who lied on loan applications, not mortgage brokers who sold what were actually called “liars’ loans” and committed documented falsification of applications to fool underwriters.

Everyone has an obligation to tell the truth when standing before the courts, paying taxes and dealing with loans or mortgages…but the fact is, the federal government enforces this obligation on everyone except the largest financial institutions in America.

The following is the full article by David Dayen from which the excerpts above were taken; a video of an interview with Truman Wolfe, author of Crisis By Design: The Untold Story of the Global Financial Coup and What You Can Do About It; and an article on the effect the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999 and the enactment of the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000 had on the financial industry (as well as the price of food and gas).

Eric Holder Thinks ‘Real Housewives’ Commit Mortgage Fraud–But Not Bank CEOs
By David Dayen, New Republic
July 30, 2013

The unstated purpose of reality television is for viewers to feel superior to the poor saps on screen. And this week it is also apparently the purpose of the Department of Justice, which indicted two of the stars of “The Real Housewives of New Jersey” on Monday. In a case involving the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) Inspector General, the IRS, the U.S. Bankruptcy Trustee and the U.S. Attorney’s office in New Jersey, Teresa Giudice and her husband Joe stand accused of cheating on their taxes, hiding assets from a bankruptcy court and, in what is described as a “mail and wire fraud conspiracy,” fraudulently obtaining several home mortgages with false applications from 2001 to 2008.

“The Giudices falsely represented on loan applications and supporting documents that they were employed and/or receiving substantial salaries when, in fact, they were either not employed or not receiving such salaries,” reads the indictment.

Far be it from me to get in the way of a stampede of schadenfreude. But before we move straight to delighting in the misfortune of obnoxious pseudo-celebrities, let’s note that this case actually feels like a rerun. Since the financial crisis, the Justice Department swears it’s made strides in prosecuting financial fraud. What it means is that it has found defendants like Teresa and Joe Giudice, who commit the crime of lying to a bank. Meanwhile, the banks—who have lied to homeowners, courts, investors, and bankruptcy trustees—have escaped prosecution entirely.

Consider the disparity in offenses here. According to the indictment, the Giudices would fill out loan applications claiming Teresa drew a salary as an executive assistant or owner of a stucco company. The couple would even submit fake pay stubs and IRS forms to this effect. In actuality, Teresa was not employed at all; she was actually a real housewife. The Giudices pulled off this mortgage loan scam six times in seven years, securing mortgage loans or home equity lines of credit totaling around $2.4 million (they used a similar scheme to acquire $2.5 million in loans for a pretend construction business).

These sound like big numbers, and they are until you remember that 11 leading banks illegally foreclosed on as many as 244,000 borrowers, who had either not actually defaulted on their loans, were approved for a loan modification or were supposed to be protected by various federal laws. And in nearly all of these cases, the banks proved their standing to foreclose in court by presenting false documents, exactly what the Giudices stand accused of.

Assuming an average loan value of $200,000, that puts the bank haul at $48 billion, some 20,000 times the value of Teresa and Joe Giudice’s mortgage take. Keep in mind that this is not a comprehensive number; the amount of false documents peddled by the banks in various foreclosure fraud scandals easily number in the millions, if not tens of millions. And yet no bank executive faces a maximum penalty of 180 years in prison for mortgage fraud, the way the Giudices do.

Another part of the Giudice indictment alleges that they lied to the U.S. Bankruptcy Trustee by hiding income made from “The Real Housewives of New Jersey” and other sources during a 2009 bankruptcy filing. Yet mega-banks like JPMorgan Chase have been accused in class action lawsuits of producing false evidence in “tens of thousands” of bankruptcy proceedings. In one celebrated case, bankruptcy judge Elizabeth Magner hit Wells Fargo with a $3.1 million fine on one loan, for routinely misapplying payments and overcharging the borrower. In the course of the trial, Judge Magner learned that “Wells Fargo admitted that these actions were part of its normal course of conduct, practiced in perhaps thousands of cases.” Banks have been found to systematically lie to bankruptcy courts, yet their executives don’t appear on TV shows tossing over furniture and getting into slap fights, so they commit these crimes with impunity.

It would be one thing if the Giudices were an anomaly in this two-tiered system of justice. But during the Obama Administration’s two terms, a commitment to fighting mortgage fraud has mostly meant a commitment to prosecuting people who lie to banks. Here are some highlights from just the past several months. In June, executives from American Mortgage Specialists were sentenced for lying to obtain $28 million in funds from BNC Bank of North Dakota. The chief executive of U.S. Mortgage, a loan servicer, pled guilty last month to defrauding Wells Fargo of $8 million. In March, an Orange County couple was sentenced to prison for bilking seven banks out of $5 million. Here’s another. And another. And another. And another. And another. In fact, the only top executive to go to jail for foreclosure fraud is Lorraine Brown, the CEO of a document processing company, convicted for passing off those false documents to banks, as if she just committed that conspiracy on her own without any direction, duping the poor Wall Streeters.

Are these legitimate sentences? They appear so. But are the resources spent on prosecuting them outsized compared to the resources spent on prosecuting bankers for defrauding homeowners, investors and courts? I don’t see how you could say no.

In the case of the Giudices, four separate agencies contributed to their indictment. And all of the individuals in the above cases received prison time. But no bank executive has spent a day in jail for systematic abuses which, by the way, helped sink the economy and prolong the misery of the foreclosure crisis. If banks get cited for their myriad crimes at all, they buy their way out of trouble with settlements for negligible sums.

The focus on small fry in financial fraud enforcement serves two purposes. First, it gives the Justice Department a talking point, however cockeyed, to prove their worthiness in prosecuting financial malfeasance. They can claim that “mortgage fraud is a top priority of this Administration.” More important, this sends a subtle yet chilling message, that the federal government will throw its weight at anyone who dares to defraud a bank, rather than securing justice against banks that defraud customers.

A high-profile indictment like the Giudices will produce lots of headlines and send that message loud and clear, that cheating banks is not tolerated in America. The real “irresponsible” parties of the financial crisis, in this reading, are homeowners who lied on loan applications, not mortgage brokers who sold what were actually called “liars’ loans,” and committed documented falsification of applications to fool underwriters. Most of those brokers avoided jail, too.

I recognize I’m in the unenviable position of defending two stars of the “Real Housewives of New Jersey,” who appear to be fairly terrible people. But when U.S. Attorney for New Jersey Paul J. Fishman said in a statement Monday, “Everyone has an obligation to tell the truth when dealing with the courts, paying their taxes and applying for loans or mortgages… That’s reality,” he should be honest and recognize that said reality comes with an asterisk. In fact, everyone except the largest financial institutions in America holds that obligation to tell the truth. We don’t have a justice system with the courage to convict everyone, regardless of wealth and power.

Glass Steagall Repeal Made Crisis Worse
By Barry Ritholtz, The Big Picture
July 30, 2012

The repeal of Glass Steagall itself did not cause the financial crisis. However, the repeal did help make the crisis worse.

I bring this up because there has been a series of straw man articles claiming Glass Steagall was not a cause in the crisis. This misstates the impact and the broader context. The overturning of the successful 1933 legislation was part and parcel of an ideology that WAS a major factor in the crash: The erroneous belief system that banks can self-regulate. This manifested in a variety of bad ideas, poor oversight and worse legislation.

The financialization of the American economy allowed banks to become bigger, more complex, and greatly leveraged. When it all came down, the crisis was broader, deeper and more dangerous than it would have been otherwise.

Glass Steagall’s repeal, after 25 years and $300 million worth of lobbying efforts, culminated decades of radical deregulation.

New-fangled derivatives? No oversight, reporting, or reserves necessary, courtesy of the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000 (CFMA). You can thank Enron Board Member Wendy Gramm, and her Senator husband Phil Gramm, for that one. Subprime-lend-to-sell-to-securitizers business model? Those are the financial innovators! At least, that is what Alan Greenspan called them, and why he refused to oversee them as Fed chair. Rules on SEC leverage? Let’s create a special exemption from the law for just five investment banks.

And so on. The list of radical deregulation and false beliefs is long and painful and dangerous and costly.

Of course “reputational risk” would serve as a deterrent to poor decision making! No bank would ever behave so recklessly as to put their own hard won status on the line — forget their very existence.

How’d that idea work out?

Had Glass Steagall not been repealed in 1999, we would still have had a financial crisis. Ultra low rates, the abdication of lending standards, the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000 (and other acts of idiocy) all made sure of that.

With Glass Steagall, there would not, could not, have been a Citi/Travelers merger, and competitors would not, could not have bulked up the way they did. Major money center banks most likely would have been smaller, more manageable, more easily wound down. Arguably, too big to fail might not have been the rule, and bailouts might not have been necessary. This is, of course, mere supposition.

The misguided philosophy that led to the repeal of Glass Steagall also did contribute mightily to the crisis. The radical deregulatory philosophy from fools such as Alan Greenspan and Phil Gramm was certainly a major factor — and the Glass Steagall repeal was part of that continuum of bad ideas.

What we should be discussing are the corrupting influence of crony capitalism and radical deregulation; instead, we find ourselves forced to defend capitalism and free markets. We should be finding ways to definancialize the US economy and reduce the influence of bankers.

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Categories: Money Fraud Charges
  1. RahRah
    August 30, 2013 at 4:38 PM

    Thanks for this article, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” I am huge Guidice fan and I can wait to see how this unfolds, either way I have come to love the Guidice’s and that is not going to change.

    • August 31, 2013 at 8:00 AM

      Thank you for your brilliant assessment of this situation. Bailouts for all!

  2. LifeIsGood
    August 30, 2013 at 5:00 PM

    THANK YOU, FAME! If more people understood just how badly we were screwed by the banks, with full cooperation from our elected officials, there would be hell to pay.

    During the deregulation craze of the late 90’s, Wall st. and the banks created a class of investment products called mortgage-backed securities. They were the hottest investment of the day, and soon enough, there weren’t enough mortgages issued to keep up with the demand. So our elected officials (many of whom became very wealthy investing in MBS) did all they could to entice people to become homeowners (tax credits, etc.). This inflated the price of homes and the housing bubble was created.

    When the number of mortgages could not keep pace with demand for these investment products, companies like Bear Sterns had the brilliant (and criminal) idea of using one mortage in several investment products – basically, they sold the same mortgage to multiple investors. Some banks were even including mortgages that were in foreclosure in these products! They would obtain one solid mortgage (one tha waas likely to be repaid) and bundle it in with 10 other sub-prime loans.

    When I come to Teresa’s defense, I am not excusing what they did – I’m really not. But it just infuriates me that the real criminals got away it and got to keep the $$, and small potatoes like Juicy and Teresa will have their lives blown apart. If they are going to pursue the wrongdoers – fine – just make sure you punish everyone involved.

    Thank you Fame!

    • Silvana
      August 30, 2013 at 9:07 PM

      I agree with you lifeisgood. While what the Guidices did is illegal how many others also took advantage of these liar loans that the banks themselves prob offered to their clients the result of this effected the whole entire world not just America and the real criminals get to just walk away as usual it’s always the small fish who becomes the fall guy. The global financial crisis was created because the BANKS get greedy their the ones who have dirty hands in my opinion, if they had been the ones to play by the rules and not turn a blind eye to these people asking for loans left, right and centre then maybe this whole mess could have been avoided!!!!

      • Saddle_River_NJ
        August 31, 2013 at 12:11 AM

        The so called “liar loans” were actually a legitimate product before the banks and Wall St saw a way to ruin them. They were simply called Stated Income loans and were typically used by high income individuals with very complex financial situations or by folks who had high, but uneven income – like real estate agents. They were typically about 1-2 points higher than a conventional loan for the convienience of not having to produce the normal reams of documentation. They were *never* concieved to be used as they ended up being.

        Very few people woke up one day and thought they would buy a home they never could afford, Folks were rallied all through the process, starting with the brokers to go for a bigger house. Every single person who moved the client along was guilty. They ALL knew what was going on. For folks like Teresa and Joe to be singled out and punished is in itself a crime. When will these weasel prosecutors get the balls to go after the banks. If anyone in the process did due dilligence, they would have seen a mis-statement of income, or something a bit off. They could have stopped the process but they didn’t.

        How many of you readers fibbed a bit on a credit card or loan application? There are sill millions of people out there in homes that were purchased with falsified loans and are making payments and no one cares. Tre and Joe do *NOT* deserve this bullshit from the jackass “persecutors” (they aren’t prosecutors in my mind).

        • Silvana
          August 31, 2013 at 12:34 AM

          I totally agree saddle!!

    • Laram
      August 31, 2013 at 4:42 PM

      Like button, and well said. We lost everything with Enron, and nothing has changed with bail out or American Corporations, much less the Global economy. Besides Prostitution, Banking is the oldest profitable business, next to religion—which all wars start from commerce. It’s still a feudal society, and the low man pays.

      I do not condone Giudice’s, if found guilty, although I support them as individuals, and think the charges are hypocritical and steep.

      • Lawd u gettin on my nerves
        September 4, 2013 at 12:04 PM

        Absolutely Laram! This has gotten way out of hand. If they want to do it right, start from the TOP!

  3. Anonymous
    August 30, 2013 at 5:03 PM

    How about the fact that all these banks got our tax dollars for a so called bailout. Then they went overseas and opened more banks. Government is so crooked it’s unbelievable. I never believed in conspiracy theories, but after all that has happened in recent years I don’t have any faith in the government at all. This is a witch hunt. More government money wasted on the wrong people. Best wishes to Joe and Teresa

  4. globug
    August 30, 2013 at 5:10 PM

    Great article, when I first hear of the charges again Joe & Teresa I really didn’t know what to think. After all I really only know them from the show and I like having all the facts before thinking anything. But around the same time I came across an article that I thought you might be interested in. The article was on Yahoo claiming that a federal judge has passed judgment that (in this article at least) Bank of America could be held on charges due to the subprime mortgages schemes. The article stated that brokers actually encouraged borrower’s to lie in order to obtain their mortgage, which the banks turned a blind eye to. I tried to find this article when I read yours but could not locate it. However, I did find this and thought you might be interested, as Shareholders of Bank of America are suing them for not securing these subprime mortgages as they should have. In doing so they acknowledge that the bank did not look out for the best interest in their shares.

    Therefore, something really stinks about this whole thing. As the article shows that the banks are just as responsible for giving the loans without validating all the information on the loan applications as they should have been according to the judge and the share holders. How and why are they now going after the borrowers when it’s clear they were encouraged to lie?

    http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539751924#.UiEEoLbD-kY

  5. August 30, 2013 at 5:48 PM

    I have spent the past 4 years representing homeowners who have been either wrongfully foreclosed or have been victims of clear PREDATORY LENDING PRACTICES by the largest banks in the WORLD.

    As one judge so eloquently stated…there has been Fraud in the Origination, Servicing, Packaing, Transferring, Securtization of loans. There is Fraud in the Courtroom, Fraud in the Boardrooms of the largest financial insitutions in the Country”

    To date, NO prison time for any mortgage lender nor any criminal filings.

    Simply civil cases that result in nominal settlements (pennies on the dollar).

    I have personally watched families lose everything to include take their own lives (or fall terminally ill from the stress caused by these institutions).

    It is a trajedy of the highest level and everyone of these Banks should be facing RICO charges and their executives…decades in prison.

    Instead, they have been assigned and paid millions of dollars to clean up the very mess they created. Truly unbelievable.

    You couldn’t make this stuff up…well you don’t have to as it is REALTY.

    Sincerely,

    Walter Hartfield White

    • August 30, 2013 at 5:55 PM

      WOW!

    • August 30, 2013 at 6:10 PM

      Walter its happening all over the world. Unfortunately. I could tell you how the Italian government taxed homeowners to the tune of 4 billion, apparently to make up their ponzi accounting, but used it to save one bank which is controlled by the present government, and it was all hid from the public until recently.

      Banks are known the world over to practise usuary with the knowledge of the government. And while the various governments refuse to address this problem with their permission

    • just this once
      August 30, 2013 at 6:45 PM

      Walter, based on your background, do you have any advice for the Giudice’s (that u could say on a blog) and are u local to their area? I only ask if you know their attnys and think they have a shot at a fair trial here…???? I know u can’t say much, but you probably have more insight than most….appreciate the thoughts

      Thanks!

    • jennacheryl
      August 30, 2013 at 10:09 PM

      Thanks Mr. White,
      I am currently suing a big bank for wrongful foreclosure. I am currently living in the house but without attorneys like you and my attorney these banks would not ever learn a lesson. It is doubtful that they are now and that’s a shame. Keep standing up for the little person….you don’t know how much we do appreciate it.

    • Teresa_Fan
      August 31, 2013 at 9:21 AM

      We were victims of both being wrongfully foreclosed and predatory lending schemes. I too got very sick, proving our case in federal court. What I discovered during my research was not only was everyone related from the real estate, to the title co., to the banks, but that they had falsified our documents and forged our signature on many documents. Thank God I had the original documents to prove fraud. Needless to say my health took a turn and I had no choice but to walk away. I can’t even look at the house from a distance without feeling sick to my stomach. Stress can kill you, and I decided to walk away before it did, but it left me battling Fibromyalgia and Chronic fatigue everyday all day.

    • adioslunatic
      August 31, 2013 at 9:22 AM

      @ Mr White

      Have you ever dealt with One West – George Soro’s bank?

    • Lawd u gettin on my nerves
      September 4, 2013 at 12:06 PM

      Excellent post Walter!

  6. August 30, 2013 at 6:19 PM

    The Banks Down here are no better – not the point of “liar loans”. We get charged 2 -3 dollars every time we use and ATM that is not linked back to our bank…. for what purpose, I’ll never know every operating system is computerised (the account keeping fee really annoys me because it’s not like there’s anyone actually overseeing my account…).

    I have a small credit card with a tiny limit and I managed to go over that limit by two hundred dollars, unbeknown to me, I thought limits were limits. Then I got a demanding text telling to cough up immediately (approx a week and a half after I went over) and that I was being charged for being over drawn. So I rang and said how’d it go over by so much if I have a limit, if there’s inefficient funds in my eftpos account it bounces back (I enjoy shopping so I get “pocket money”) and he said that I had to ask for my limit to be enforced because they don’t want their customers to be embarrassed at the checkout!!! Needless to say, I got the fee refunded…

    This obviously isn’t at the level you guys are discussing, just an example of one of the basic ways the banks try to screw you. I would LOVE to see them audited.

    • August 30, 2013 at 6:25 PM

      In Italy many people get their bank accounts audited to prove usuary. I got my business account audited last year and I found out the bank had practised usuary on my account since the day I opened it.

      On quarter the banks may me pay 268% interest on my account when the legal amount was a ‘measley’ 4.9%. I advise everyone I meet to gets their accounts audited, by a professional independant . my auditor is an ex bank employee who knows all their tricks on skimming money from accounts!

      • August 30, 2013 at 6:34 PM

        Whoa! I thought Greece was bad!!

        Not kissing Teresa’s arse but in some respects it’s good that her situation is causing conversation in the media about the way the banks operate.

        • August 30, 2013 at 6:40 PM

          Greece, IMO, was fucked over by the EU. They wanted to leave the euro and the next thing they are in default with the elected PM disposed and a Goldman Sachs honcho placed there by the EU. Same thing in Italy. Berlusconi wouldn’t play ball and make more payments to the EU so he was jutted and monti, Goldman Sachs put in his place.

          We actually did have an election in February. The person who won the election was blocked from taking office and the EU imposed letta, (bilderberg) on us.

          Shady dealings where banksters are running countries instead of being shipped of to jail!

          • August 30, 2013 at 6:48 PM

            • August 30, 2013 at 6:58 PM

              Excellent vid fame, and everyone should watch it!

              • August 30, 2013 at 7:00 PM

                I removed the video from my comment and included it in this blog so that people won’t miss it. Thanks IIK!

                Crisis By Design: The Untold Story of the Global Financial Coup:

                John Truman Wolfe, author of America the Litigious, Mind Games and The Gift has released his latest stunning bestseller Crisis By Design: The Untold Story of the Global Financial Coup and What You Can Do About It”. Wolfe draws on experience as a senior credit officer in two banks, and co-founder of a prestigious Los Angeles based business management company, where as a registered investment adviser he oversaw the financial and investment matters of some of the biggest names in Hollywood.

                • August 30, 2013 at 7:02 PM

                  😉 everyone should watch it, open their eyes and learn what’s really going on!

      • August 30, 2013 at 6:42 PM

        One quarter the bank made me pay.

        Flipping autocorrect!

    • LifeIsGood
      August 30, 2013 at 7:24 PM

      Sackem,

      US banks charge the same ATM fees. Also, in an effort to get more people to do all of their banking online, some banks are implementing fees to go to a teller! So you’ll pay at the ATM and you’ll pay if you walk into a branch to cash a check. To make matters worse, many of these fees are targeted at accounts with smaller balances. The people who can’t afford to allow 3-5K sit in their account (making the bank $$) end up paying the fees.

      • Debbie J
        August 30, 2013 at 9:08 PM

        Hey my bank says if I don’t direct deposit $300 at least once a month they will charge me $10.98 and if I use another ATM it cost me $2.00 from my bank and anywhere from $2.50 to $6.00 from the other bank’s.

        It is insane.

      • August 31, 2013 at 9:05 PM

        That’s why I joined — and now work at — a credit union. Free checking, low rates, low (or no) fees. They are not-for-profit, so no shareholders to please — just their membership.

    • Silvana
      August 30, 2013 at 9:42 PM

      Sackem don’t be surprised if our banks use liar loans too we just haven’t tried is all. I remember when we needed a loan for a block of land this was before the GFC and the guy who was doing our loan just wrote down an amount of income on our loan application that we needed to make to get the loan never asked what our income was or asked for proof of income just did it and got us the loan. We were very lucky our house sold quickly and we repayed the loan off otherwise we could of ended up like the Guidices and it would of been our fault not the banks even though they were the ones to just do it they made it seem like it was done all the time and was nothing to worry about.

    • Detroitrockcity
      September 1, 2013 at 3:50 AM

      Same thing here! We get charged up to 3.50 for using an atm outside our bank! Is pure bullshit!! I have got so screwed for being charged 30.00 overdrawn fees on a few bucks I didn’t know about!! We tried to fight the bank,1500.00 dollars later is now on our credit report and they can kiss my ars if I’m paying it! I’ll probobly be sued for it! I’m just a little fish in a giant pond of scum!!!;/

      • September 1, 2013 at 4:00 PM

        they say we owe a phone 341.00 that one had in texas and I have told them 6 times I have never had it
        but if you ever sell your house they will get it then

  7. August 30, 2013 at 6:42 PM

    When my aunt and uncle bought a house like 13 or 14 years ago the lender tried to get them to do something that theyt deemed “shady”. So needless to say they went to a new lender. I think the banks, and the loan agents are as guilty, or even more guilty because I think they were pushing these people to get these loan that they could not afford, and telling them what they should fill out on loan papers. I have a feeling if they go to court the Guidice’s will not be quiet, and they will say what they know about everyone. However, I do feel that it is messed up, that the federal government is going after that Guidice’s and not the laureitas.

    • Silvana
      August 30, 2013 at 9:51 PM

      Exactly renee the banks make out like its not a big deal and is just a step in the process and that everyone does it. Because the are meant to be the experts we accept their word and most people follow thinking everything will be ok what they neglect to tell you is that it is illegal and can have very real legal implications for you if something goes wrong.

  8. Wilbur
    August 30, 2013 at 6:45 PM

    It will always be like this. The average citizens are always the ones screwed by the powers that be. The govt. picks the winners and losers and we will always be the losers. We don’t have the money or power to challenge those that make the rules. The bankers, lawyers and politicians will decide what laws they will follow and little if anything will happen to them. The best we can do is not break the law because they will come after us with everything they have. We don’t stand a chance. Teresa should have known this. I do.

    • August 30, 2013 at 6:55 PM

      Wilbur. Teresa ‘should have known this’.

      And if she knew nothing of the dealings? I don’t know every move my husband makes in his business and if he asks me to sign a document I do with my eyes closed. Because I trust him. The same with my business and documents I ask him to sign.

      I can tell you of people who were blocked from paying their mortgage because the bank wanted to monetise on their assets, which were worth 30 times more than the original loan. Banksters. Do you know how to protect yourself from them?

      • Wilbur
        August 30, 2013 at 8:54 PM

        I can’t believe she was not involved in any of these issues. Maybe some but not all. She did lie under oath about her assets. Maybe it was a mistake on her part but she stood in court and perjured herself. When I said she should have known, I meant she should have known they would have gone after her like a shark goes after blood. We should all be aware that we are not important enough like banks and politicians to get away with anything. The little guy will always get screwed.

        • Detroitrockcity
          September 1, 2013 at 4:08 AM

          Hey Wilber,love the name! Makes me think of Mr Ed 😉 I kinda agree with you,when we did anything to do loans,refinance, taxes ect… I had to be present to sign any documents with a notery witnessing our signatures. We had to show at least 3 types of ID! So that makes me wonder also?!?

  9. lalala
    August 30, 2013 at 6:54 PM

    Just want to add that we shouldn’t forget the banks that foreclosed on members of the armed forces who were deployed, in direct violation of the CSRA. It disgusts me that Chase has this big push to hire veterans – yea, because they screwed them while they were fighting. I have directly assisted homeowners who were served foreclosure papers at their home while in Iraq and Afghanistan (um, did they get them?!). Luckily they’re in NY which is a judicial foreclosure state and has extra protections – in other states the banks took the homes.

    Oh and remember the Independent Foreclosure Review that was being done by the OCC? This was in response to the big robo-signing scandal (ya know, where banks and their attorneys falsely notarized documents to foreclose illegally!!). Homeowners in foreclosure could fill out a form to have their foreclosure proceedings reviewed for accuracy and they could possibly get a pittance if they were wronged (if they had lost the home they’d get more than those who were still in the process). Well, it proved to be too much and they stopped the reviews and just sent everyone a check!! Don’t even ask how much of the settlement the people who were doing the review got, whatever was left was distributed to the wronged homeowners.

    For the 10 years leading up to the crisis, what Joe and Tre did was just business as usual for anyone in any business related to real estate. They’re bankruptcy attorney should be disbarred.

    I know a lot of people want to be moral and say ‘oh, they should pay for their crimes, it’s only right’ – I get that but not in this case. I say F it, if one has to pay they all have to pay. Too big to jail mofos.

    Sorry for the rant, it’s been a rough 7 years (yes, it all started in 2006 but hit the real world in 2008!)

    • August 30, 2013 at 7:15 PM

      Yes, it has Ialala. The writing was on the wall in 2005 or 2006, but didn’t hit everyone until like january of 2008. Yes and what Tre and Joe did might have been wrong, but it was business as usual for people involved in real estate. It is soo wrong that the federal government can just pick and choose who they want to prosecute, and not go after everyone. I personally think if they are going to go after one, they have to go after all, and yes that includes the bankers, the executives, the loan officers, the borrowers, and the lawyers, accountants etc.. who were doing something they knew was illegal.

      • Wilbur
        August 30, 2013 at 8:48 PM

        They went after them because if their fame. It will scare the rest of us not to do these things. Feds love high profile cases like this.

    • LifeIsGood
      August 30, 2013 at 7:43 PM

      lalala,

      I wondered about the giudices’ BK attorney as well. What did that attorney do to earn his $$?? It was his job to advise them, and if he saw something as obvious as missing tax returns, he should have put the brakes on prior to filing.

      • Wilbur
        August 30, 2013 at 8:46 PM

        I would bet that lawyer is up on ethics charges. Allowing his clients to have legal meetings on camera was legal malpractice. You know the Feds are looking at all the out takes of that. So stupid for a hack lawyer who wanted to get on television.

      • lalala
        August 30, 2013 at 9:33 PM

        The attorneys feign ignorance, I think, and some are just stupid. Sorry but some are. I’ve been asked to work for BK attorneys to assist their filers compile their documents – that would have been my only job. Those who are savvy knew why to use me – to cover themselves, others who were clueless and couldn’t even read a tax return knew why to use me – to cover themselves. But I couldn’t bring myself to do for money what I do for free (I work for a non-profit and we don’t charge anyone) even if what I do isn’t BK, my work with them can be used by my clients for it.

        The banks, investors, loan servicers – the whole lot – brought the middle class to their knees. Anyone who thinks different just doesn’t know the full extent of what’s been done (not people here! lots of knowledgeable people here). Now to see it being played out with Teresa – who I like for the many reasons that have been stated here – it has made me boil over!

        So thanks Fame for this excellent post and the really solid information – so much out now (about all subjects) is biased and opinion. So I get to come here after a tough day and get some truth, even if it’s just about a reality show. Somehow that makes everything a little easier! And to see everyone who posts be respectful, thoughtful and friggin hilarious turned me from a long time lurker to a sometimes poster. Nice to know nice people exist on the internets!

        PS – ya know us New Yorkers hate Jersey (see the SNL skit w/ Gov Paterson making all the Jersey jokes? Not a skit! That’s really what we do!) so for me to care this much about T says something!! JKJKJK!!!!

    • August 31, 2013 at 8:07 AM

      My daughter’s good friend, graduated from the University of Florida, did two tours in Afghanistan and has been unable to find a job for over a year. Finally, he got a low paying job as a prison guard. That is how we reward our soldiers. And I agree with the above poster that their bankruptcy attorney should be disbarred.

      • Saddle_River_NJ
        August 31, 2013 at 3:13 PM

        That is obscene!!! It doesn’t matter if someone is a right wing conservative or a socialist liberal. The one thing we need to do as a nation is to support our returning soldiers 110%. It doesn’t matter if a war is right or wrong. Our soldiers could be fighting the dumbest war but they are still putting life and limb on the line for *US*. We owe them everything it takes to get their lives back on track and in a good direction when they come home. Education, financial support, job training and most importantly full medical and mental health care with no wait times.

        • Anonymous
          August 31, 2013 at 4:25 PM

          I agree Saddle but unfortunately we are allowing our elected officials to shaft the very young men and women they so capriciously sent to fight in the middle east. If they are injured it suffering from PTSD or even limbs blown off they and their families will have to do battle again to get the medical attention they deserve. Banks thought nothing of foreclosing on our service men and women while they served our country. Its a huge disgrace.

        • August 31, 2013 at 6:02 PM

          Saddle, I read on Reuters that active military and veterans got special relief – the amount of the lost equity PLUS interest PLUS $166,785:

          The White House also announced more details about an agreement with mortgage servicers to compensate people serving in the military and veterans who faced wrongful foreclosure. It said servicers will reviews thousands of foreclosures on properties owned by members of the military and will pay those whose homes were wrongly seized the amount of lost equity plus interest and $116,785. – March 6, 2012

          http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/06/us-usa-housing-idUSTRE8211OO20120306

        • adioslunatic
          September 1, 2013 at 7:31 AM

          Preach it, Saddle, preach it! These men and women are to whom we owe everything – and I do mean everything – God bless them a million times over.

  10. August 30, 2013 at 7:06 PM

    These sound like big numbers, and they are until you remember that 11 leading banks illegally foreclosed on as many as 244,000 borrowers, who had either not actually defaulted on their loans, were approved for a loan modification or were supposed to be protected by various federal laws. And in nearly all of these cases, the banks proved their standing to foreclose in court by presenting false documents. This is exactly what happened to my aunt and uncle. They were approved of a loan modification, and then after they were paying their new payment, the bank tried to come and foreclose on their house. Luckily they had a wonderful attorney who stopped this illegal practice, and they were able to keep their home WITH THE LOAN MODIFICATION. The sad thing about their and other homeowners situation is, the banks did not get punished. In fact they did not even get a slap on the wrist. Yet the goverment is goingafter people like the Gudice’s because they broke the law. Well so did the banks, and the people on top that make these decisions for the banks are still living in their nice homes, and do not have to worry about being arrested and sent to jail.

    • August 30, 2013 at 10:37 PM

      For me, during this time frame, I found a house I really wanted (not my dream house) as it was directly across the street from my mom and dad. I hadn’t sold my old house yet and was leary, but the lender said no worries over and over and over, so you kind of do buy into it or I did. So we bought the house and closed in 12 days. Guess what, we couldn’t afford both even though “they” said we could — we should have got kicked out at underwriting. The banks refused to work with you at all and so my new house went into foreclosure. It was tough to find out as the bank never sent us a certified letter, nothing. I had people knocking on my door day in and out wanting to get a peek. Finally sold the old house and 5K in atty fees later saved the new one.

      I did not lie on anything, but good golly, where do the banks have responsibility in this mess?

      • August 31, 2013 at 7:18 PM

        mzjulesaz, maybe you can go after your real estate agent and the mortgage agent for shady practices. It is sad that they told you that you had the money to do this. So they know your budget, how much money you make & spend, etc? No they don’t. Let it be a lesson to everyone that you have to look after your own finances, because there are plenty of sharks out there trying to fleece you.

        It’s a slick game, getting people to spend way over what they can afford just so the salesperson can pocket a commission.

  11. Julia
    August 30, 2013 at 7:19 PM

    It’s really sad. Plus, rumor has it back in 2008 or 2009 when Melissa was so desperate to get on the show and jealous of the Teresa, that she wrote the IRS anonymously on numerous occassions reporting false information. What family member would do something like that? I hope the Giudices make it through this

    • August 30, 2013 at 10:38 PM

      How would she have information?

    • August 31, 2013 at 8:09 AM

      She was always snooping around for dirt on the Guidice’s and their parents, which is why Teresa had her key taken away.

    • August 31, 2013 at 8:28 AM

      The kind that does not love anyone but herself. Her husband and children are her property, they are objects she can use to gain attention and discard when she is finished with them. She does not think about consequences of her actions hurting her children or anyone, because that does not matter.

    • August 31, 2013 at 10:02 AM

      You know, I could see Tsil doing that. People like her do not know boundries! If someone threw a pebble at them they would throw a boulder back! My guess how Tsil would know that type of info would be from Joey? Tsil is a very sneaky and manipulative person. My ex-BIL was filing false claims with the government while he was a deputy sheriff of a small Montana county. His new wife is the one who turned him in because he was cheating on her. While the Feds were investigating my BIL the Feds uncovered the sheriff filing the same false claims. Both were fired, placed on 3 mos. probation and the sheriff sentenced to 6 mos. in jail. It took a couple of years for my BIL to find out it was his own wife he turned him in! I don’t know who outed his wife but someone at the county courthouse knew that info while my BIL was arrested, jailed and fired. So, if Tsil did help the Feds it’ll come out sooner or later about her participation. Sometimes the people you let into your family can turn out to be your worst enemy! This blog was very interesting, Fame, as are the comments. That’s why I love this blog! Real people stating real facts and telling real stories that pertain to the show.

      • August 31, 2013 at 9:16 PM

        Line 6 correction: My ex-BIL and the sheriff were sentenced to 3 years of probation.

  12. August 30, 2013 at 7:31 PM

    Hummm now it all makes sense, President Obama, in one of his speech’s said to We the American People, that we shouldn’t be sitting at home watching the Real Housewives……..wonder what he knew????? *.*

    • August 30, 2013 at 10:20 PM

      You might not be too far off on that one!

  13. Jack Hole
    August 30, 2013 at 7:45 PM

    I like a lot of Michael Moore’s work and this issue of executives and white collar crime and what some call the “dual justice system” in America has been at the crux of many of his arguments through the years. Why I bring him in to this conversation? The irony is not lost on me that some years ago he had a show full of his boycott- style confrontations against big companies and executives on what network? BRAVO!!!!!!!! I think it was called the Awful Truth?

    And Bravo’s Board of Director (president?) is from JP Morgan? How ironic that it’s the “little guy” on Bravo that they go after…smdh

    • August 31, 2013 at 8:14 AM

      It is like we live in one giant destructive narcissistic system with blame shifting and deflection.

    • adioslunatic
      September 1, 2013 at 7:38 AM

      Sorry but, after reading “Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man” Moore holds no credibility for me, he is a liar and a scam artist and has been for decades.

      No wonder he had a show on Blahvo.

  14. JUST ME P
    August 30, 2013 at 7:57 PM

    HOW MANY BANKS GOT BAILOUTS BY THE GOVERNMENT AND THEN WENT AND PAID
    MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN BONUSES TO EMPLOYEES??

    • August 30, 2013 at 10:13 PM

      Not employees … execs. The little guy didn’t see squat.

      • August 30, 2013 at 10:22 PM

        Jules, off-topic, but I posted a pic of the new and improved Petey on my profile. His little teeth need a lot of work…he’s going to have to be sedated and descaled and his canine baby teeth never fell out, so he will have to have those pulled. Also needs neutered and who knows what else…

        • August 30, 2013 at 10:41 PM

          Dogs are expensive but they are worth it! He’s sssooooooo cute. How is he adjusting to the house?

          • September 1, 2013 at 6:28 PM

            He seems to be doing really well. Clingy, but that is to be expected…he got a new home, went to the groomers and camping the next day, back to his new home, camping again for awhile. Lots of changes. They made him a little car seat as he was getting sick on rides and that seems to have solved that.

      • August 31, 2013 at 8:10 AM

        very true.

  15. chupacabra
    August 30, 2013 at 8:23 PM

    Excellent post Fame.

    Our own government has, and continues to create nothing but war, poverty, and theft. But we the people are ultimately responsible because things got a little too complicated for us, we stopped following along, stopped paying attention, and now here we are…..I do not believe we will or can turn this giant clusterfuck around, the US dollar is practically worthless at this point. I used to be mad all of the time about how we are so screwed, about how no one cares about the truth, about our liberty dying…..but sadly i have come to the conclusion that it is just to convoluted, too fucked up, too late. so now i just wait for the big announcement on the news one morning telling us how the dollar has collapsed….yada yada yada…..it’s all so sad what these son of a bitches in our government have done to destroy a once prosperous free market…..but it is what it is.

    prosecuting the guidices is like a doctor prescribing a band-aid to a patient diagnosed with terminal cancer. pointless.

    • Silvana
      August 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM

      That’s the thing with all governments they don’t give a Fuck about the people all they care about is being the most popular on Election Day. Us Australians have a way of thinking when it comes to politicians we vote for the guy that we think will fuck up the country the least cause we know whoever is in is gonna fuck it up anyway so we try to decide the lesser of 2 evils.

      • chupacabra
        August 31, 2013 at 12:46 PM

        this is precisely why i don’t vote anymore. they are all crooks. i saw zero difference between romney and obama. their rhetoric may have differed but their actions and results were the same: more war, bigger government, and less prosperity. I refuse to vote because voting means that i am giving my consent to the individual and their actions.

        • Wilbur
          August 31, 2013 at 4:47 PM

          You’re a purist!

          • chupacabra
            August 31, 2013 at 9:30 PM

            lol, i have heard that a time or two. I try my damnedest to live by the wise words of one of my heros, Mr. Thomas Jefferson: “In matters of principal, stand like a rock”.

        • Silvana
          August 31, 2013 at 9:03 PM

          Unfortunately chupa in Australia it is compulsory to vote otherwise we get fined if I didn’t have to I wouldn’t……….they prob made it compulsory because they know no one would vote if given the option;-)

          • chupacabra
            August 31, 2013 at 9:36 PM

            wow! I had no idea it was compulsory to vote in Australia! I would probably pay the fine and write on the check “paid under duress” lol.

            • Silvana
              September 1, 2013 at 2:37 AM

              Hahahaha. Or you can go on Election Day and do a donkey vote that’s where you don’t vote fore any one you just fold it up and put it in the box like you have voted the ballot papers don’t have your name on it you so once you go and get your named ticked off to say you are there no one can know who you voted for!! Known a few people who have voted for Fatcat (a child’s tv personality) to!! 😉

    • Miss Alicat
      August 31, 2013 at 8:01 AM

      I agree. I work for a small regional bank (not in lending), and we had to deal with the fallout of these crazy loans. We saw the writing on the wall even before the Feds and created programs to work with our homeowners to keep them in their homes.

      While I agree that deregulation had 99% to do with what happened, the American people are not blameless. Lots of people wanted the house more than they wanted to read the fine print on their adjustable rate mortgage loans, which explains what happens to their payment amount when prime starts to go up (which is exactly what happened to a lot of these people). People bought bigger houses than they could really afford because they could afford what the payment was when prime was low, never thinking about what would happen if prime went up. It’s the whole “I’ll deal with to tomorrow tomorrow.” mentality. Loans truly are based on basic math…x amount of dollars plus whatever interest rate you are approved for (prime plus whatever points the bank tacks on for an ARM, or a flat interest rate if it isn’t an ARM) paid back over y amount of months. If you passed junior high math you can figure out a loan payment. The problem wasn’t and still isn’t liar loans, it was that people got sold into ARMs they didn’t understand when they bought their house. A teaser rate when prime was low means that someone working for minimum wage could afford a dream house with no money down. Prime starts to go up and now your $750 mortgage payment is $1750, no longer affordable in your income bracket. That is what started the foreclosure mess.

      As more houses got sold this way, the housing prices went up, so people who could afford to buy were paying double what the property was actually worth now that the market has tanked and prices have readjusted. That means someone who bought a $200k condo at the height of the market is left paying $200k for something now worth maybe $75k (see Florida for a prime example of overbuilding while the market was high). This is what it means to be under water on your loan, you will never resell it for what you paid for it. This is what started the short sale market, people selling their homes for what is left on the loan.

      By personal example…we bought in 2002 (before mortgage crisis) a large 4 bedroom condo for $140k. At the height of the bubble, we could have sold for $450k. We did a refi in 2008 to take $30k out to do some bathroom remodels. Now we are slightly underwater since 20% of our complex is in foreclosure and our size unit can be gotten at firesale prices. We have to wait for all the foreclosures to get sold before we can list our unit to just break even. Being a banker, I told my husband we should sell and rent for a while when the market hit $400k, but he didn’t want to move then. Of course, now he bitches that we can’t sell and make any money…hindsight is that he should always listen to his wife. Happy wife, happy life.

      I agree that the people who made the mess should go to jail,

      • chupacabra
        August 31, 2013 at 12:32 PM

        I do not believe deregulation was the cause of the crisis. This feeds into the myth that a free market or a “laissez faire” system was to blame when we have had no such thing until prior to 1913. Yes deregulation played a part, that cannot be denied, however many, many, many other government regulations were still in place at the time. It was the combination of upheld regulations in certain areas along with the deregulation in other areas that allowed banks to do the things that they did, simply put, the crisis was caused BY government intervention AND the Federal Reserve.

        Please do not take my reply as arguing with you or anything like that, I mean no disrespect, just my opinion is all.

        • Dixie
          August 31, 2013 at 11:01 PM

          Good point. Many of the regulations required banks to give loans to people that did not meet normal financial requirements. That and the overpricing of homes were extremely large contributors to the burst.

          The problem why these banks have not been held accountable is that these people who were involved have moved into our government. Look at our current and last Secretary of Treasurer; both have had invovlement with banking groups that were part of the housing crisis. Look at former NJ Governor John Corzine that is behind billion of monies lost, yet who has not had any charges brought against him. They protect their own.

      • Anonymous
        August 31, 2013 at 1:31 PM

        I sold modular and mobile homes for a while. What surprised me is someone could walk in pick out a modular home and the bank would buy the land, put down the septic tank, build a front and back porch, build a garage on to it, pay off a existing lein that is owed with no money down on the home. The buyer had nothing to lose. I could not believe it.
        Here I was trying to buy a 12,000.00 car with 6000.00 down (me and my husband owes no one it’s been 10 years since we had purchased anything big, we never had held any charge cards he had held the same job for 16 years.) and could not get a 6000.00 loan because we had not credit rating. This my friend is the Gospel truth.

  16. need a razor,have hairy pits
    August 30, 2013 at 8:43 PM

    what can we,the regular people do to help joe and teresa?

    • chupacabra
      August 30, 2013 at 9:02 PM

      we can support her endeavors, her cookbooks are well worth the money. or support Nephcure, her favorite charity.

      • August 30, 2013 at 10:16 PM

        Milania is wonderful (the haircare stuff) and her skinny Italian foods are good as well, bit pricy but quality stuff.

      • August 31, 2013 at 8:13 AM

        Not much, because at this point what if they seize her assets in the future. Then you would be giving your money to the very people that are prosecuting her. I wish we could find out the extent to which Melissa, Monica Chacon and Kim G. were involved in bringing her down, so to speak. But, I do remember Fame posting a blog shortly before all this went down regarding a book signing she was doing and you had to bring cash. Not smart.

        • Wilbur
          August 31, 2013 at 4:45 PM

          Is that true? She really asked for cash? Yikes. Well, unless the IRS was there to track it, she may have got lucky. Hope she only did it once maybe?

  17. Think This Through
    August 30, 2013 at 8:54 PM

    “Babylon’s Bankers” – is an excellent book explaining (and giving facts) about how this banking fiasco is really a Long Range Plan to destroy families and countries.
    Also Red Ice Radio has free interviews with the author giving more info on how far back this all goes.

  18. Wilbur
    August 30, 2013 at 9:23 PM

    Over the last 15 years we have been audited twice by the IRS and they caught tiny, little errors and we ended up paying what was owed plus interest. Yet we have a sec. Of the treasury who didn’t even pay his taxes and blamed quicken. Not only did he get away with it, he is now runni g the US treasury. That’s what I mean about different rules. We can’t fight it or win it, it just is. As long as we understand the rules and make sure we cross every T and dot every I, we may be ok. It’s horrible but I don’t see another way.

    • August 30, 2013 at 10:25 PM

      And now the IRS is going to be responsible for our healthcare…

      • August 31, 2013 at 8:15 AM

        Mull that over for a little while. The same corrupt, incompetent assholes who audited people with legal but different political views were audited and persecuted by these bastards. And they are going to decide if you get that operation or the meds that you need. With no medical background whatsoever. Positively terrifying.

        • Saddle_River_NJ
          August 31, 2013 at 4:27 PM

          Gessie – trust me – it is not as bad as you have been led to believe. The new laws are in place to limit the “administrative” (non health related) cost in providing health insurance – *not* health care. Regulations are also being put into place that limit the markup that hospitals can put on supplies. As an example – a single bag of saline solution costs a hospital about $4. This is for a bag of water and Morton (yes that what is in saline) salt. They then turn around and charge patients up to about $95 for that same bag and then charge additionally for administering it (about $130) and for the doctor and nurses fees. These are the abuses that are being gone after by the law. The folks who are fighting it are the hospitals and medical supply companies who do not want the gravy train cut off. They have been soliciting members of the House via lobbyists to rally the public sentiment against health care reform by a war of disinformation. I know several people who purchase health insurance directly. Their coverage has not changed one iota and yet they got substantial refunds from thier insurance companies for the excess “administrative” costs – in one case a check for over $7000. They still have health coverage but now at a much lower cost.

          • lalala
            August 31, 2013 at 10:37 PM

            Saddle is right – my job will be getting serious savings on health care come January – I think people are going to be surprised what a diff its gonna make. I’ll take more IRS agents, its worth it

          • adioslunatic
            September 1, 2013 at 7:55 AM

            @ Saddle

            It’s worse they we thought.

            Ask yourself this – WHY would the government want to take over one sixth of the countries economy (health care)?

            Power and control.

            All they need to do to “fix” the system is to expand Medicare, tort (lawsuit) reform, better coordinated care and let insurance companies sell across state lines in turn creating competition.

            Competition ALWAYS creates lower costs. Silly example but, remember Pashminas that cost hundreds of dollars when they first became popular? Well, now I can buy 2 for 10 bucks. Why? Because they are everywhere and not just a few high falutin’ department stores.

            Pretty freakin’ simple.

            To quote Ronald Reagan:

            “Government is not a solution to our problem; government is the problem.”

            • adioslunatic
              September 1, 2013 at 7:59 AM

              * country’s economy

            • Saddle_River_NJ
              September 1, 2013 at 2:45 PM

              The $5 Pashimas are fakes made out of acrylic and rayon. Real ones made from the fine fur are still hundreds of dollars.

              I am one of the 1% and am in a position to have access information and knowlegde. I know the truth re: government, healthcare, taxes, etc… Better yet I also know that this is *NOT* the place to discuss either politics or religion. Two areas that are never discussed in polite society. We are in an era when facts are of little importance to people and fervor and faith can’t be swayed in an environment like that.

              I am here to discuss RHONJ. And that is what we need to keep the discussions focused on.

              • adioslunatic
                September 1, 2013 at 3:15 PM

                Well, these rules will be a shock to Fame…we’ve always spoken our minds here at Fame’s.

                • Saddle_River_NJ
                  September 1, 2013 at 4:28 PM

                  They are personal rules my dear. When I see a site devoted to ROHNJ turn into a hotbed of passionate political and religious discussions I just need to walk away. It’s not what I came here for. My religious beliefs are part of my faith and we all have different belief systems and intensities thereoff. It rarely remains civil when the discourse is between wildly opposing beliefs. Likewise with politics. I am fortunate enough to be a relative “insider” so to speak and are presented with a set of facts that I base my decisions on. There is a huge difference in facts gleaned from a politically leaning news organization or group than those that are structurally absolute. At the end of the day I came here to vent about the nasty little tart, not head down some politically charged minefield that does not further knowledge or exposure of the Gorgas. I appreciate the venue Fame created and would hope that it remains focused.

                  • adioslunatic
                    September 1, 2013 at 4:41 PM

                    @ Saddle

                    For all I know you’re not a 1%’er with inside knowledge of anything and to tell the truth your posts wreak of condescension.
                    My opinion (as well as others here) is as valid as any of yours. That being said, adios mi amiga! 😉

              • September 1, 2013 at 5:42 PM

                what do you mean? ,im not welcome to come on here anymore and ask for prayer bcus my daughter was brutly hurt by 3 bastards ,and we didn’t know where to turn,?and these prayers and people saved me from killing myself or somebody. ok this is messed up.,do we jus talk about meho n jogo?i would have missed ms fames sermon she shared ms Jeannie s mama ,the hands the poem, and the ms jackiemama grandsons birth.,all the other wonderful people and their stories.ok iv got to tink about this

                • Saddle_River_NJ
                  September 1, 2013 at 6:29 PM

                  Prayer and consideration for others are wonderful and lovely. And that is certainly not what I was referring to. There is the old adage about never discussing politics or religion in polite company. The issue being that it frequently can lead to dissonace and unplesantness. Offering prayers and comfort to a stranger is a fine and noble thing – and you can see that I have frequently kept folk here in my prayers. But that in itself is not a discussion. I am just getting concerned because of the tenor of this thread when it comes to politics vis-a-vis the real estate meltdown and the charges against the Guidices. I’m now seeing divisive (as opposed to lively) opinion (not saying right or wrong) expressed and in the post above by adioslunatic it take a turn to the personal. *That* is what darkens discussion boards.

        • Wilbur
          August 31, 2013 at 4:43 PM

          I know. They are hiring 18,000 new IRS agents to track everyone down to make sure they buy insurance. The IRS will be bigger and more powerful than they already are.

          • August 31, 2013 at 11:05 PM

            what if we just have medicare?we still need ins?

  19. August 30, 2013 at 9:55 PM

    Totally off topic, but I saw this tonight on the news and it touched my heart. Sweet Lorraine .. the story is on the link.

    • August 30, 2013 at 10:25 PM

      I posted this to my Facebook the other day. Sweet, sweet story!!!

    • August 31, 2013 at 10:33 AM

      Beautiful

    • DD
      August 31, 2013 at 7:03 PM

      I posted this too. It touched my heart and I cried. My mothers name was Lorrain. It hit me where it hurts. Thanks mzjulesaz sometimes we need things like this to remind us all despite all that goes on in this world our lives are sooooo precious to us.

  20. Jack Hole
    August 30, 2013 at 10:56 PM

    This is off topic as well but WTF Anthony Arater??!!! What ever happened to him and his big talk?!! Melissa saved again or what??!!!!

    • Silvana
      August 31, 2013 at 5:31 AM

      I know I was thinking the same thing. I’m not on twitter but I check his everyday to see but he’s had nothing interesting of late. Was hopping one of his followers will ask about this interview and when it’s coming out!!

    • LifeIsGood
      August 31, 2013 at 7:09 AM

      I’m not sure, this whole thing has a “roxypoxygirl” ring to it. If it is legit, I’m sure the magazine would want to time the publication with her book release.

      • Silvana
        August 31, 2013 at 9:12 PM

        I was thinking that to lifeisgood. Hope we are right.

    • August 31, 2013 at 8:16 AM

      blah, blah, blah. Still waiting. Not holding breath.

      • August 31, 2013 at 3:40 PM

        Anthony should have sold his story to the National Enquirer. Unlike Us Weekly, that tabloid is not on the NBC/Bravo payroll. If he sold to Us Weekly, they may never publish the story. And if they do, it will be twisted to show Melissa in a positive light, with quotes from her, and Anthony as a liar, emphasizing his criminal record.

  21. IamNobodysHW
    August 31, 2013 at 12:50 AM

    When I got divorced my alimony was the ex was to make the mortgage payments. He never did and when I found out 3 months later I was horrified. I only get $800 a month SS and could never make up 3 months mortgage. Well the bank did get their money ( I sold every thing of value I had) plus $24,000.00. Yes $24,000.00. They made me pay an extra $400 a month for 5 years because they said it was for lawyer’s fees. I don’t know how but I did it and still have my home. The ex has never paid me a penny in alimony and I cannot afford to fight him. No one (lawyer) will touch a post divorce without money down. I did it on my own and don’t want anything from him. It is surprising what you can do for very little . I go without a lot, but have something money can’t but. FRIENDSHIP, like all of you here. I don’t think I would be able to get through most days if not for my Fame Family. Another $16,000.000 and the home is mine, then CHASE Bank can kiss my butt. (I have lived here for 33 years, refinanced in 1995 & divorce in 1999 and the only way I will leave is feet first). I am not sure if the mortgage was for 20,25 or 30 years. Still trying to find the paperwork. The banks need to be held accountable for the rotten stuff they do. I pray I live long enough to burn the mortgage on my home, that’s all I want.
    Love,hugs and kisses to all

    • happylady
      August 31, 2013 at 11:15 PM

      Iamnobodyshw, You are one tough cookie! Hang in there! Im sorry your ex is such a schmuck,but youre definately not alone in that category!

  22. August 31, 2013 at 8:10 AM

    Dear Fame-bly, I must quit you for the weekend as I am having “beach company”. I must say that now I am checking this site before I check my local paper. Everyone please have a safe and enjoyable weekend, hopefully spent with friends and family, and please remember to not drink and drive. Checkpoints are going to everywhere. Hopefully, I’ll be able to hop on now and then just to laugh at “the other family”. Who knows maybe Andy’s Unicorn will come walking by. *.*

    • Jack Hole
      August 31, 2013 at 8:27 AM

      Ha!! I am in Upstate NY and the forecast calls for rain all weekend (which sucks for many different reasons!) I live near a “duty-free” beach on Lake Ontario, but I guess we won’t be able to enjoy this time around! There is always housework and reading to catch up on!! Be safe and have fun!

      • jeanbean
        August 31, 2013 at 12:49 PM

        Hey Jack Hole I am also in upstate and see a rainy forecast. Swimming in lake Ontario this summer was beautiful. we have a cottage in the finger lakes and hope for some sun. Everyone enjoy the holiday!

    • August 31, 2013 at 8:39 AM

      Also I would like for everyone to remember what this Holiday represents. The working people years ago fought long and hard for this special day. So remember to Labor with rest every once in awhile. *.*

  23. Spaghetti Kitten
    August 31, 2013 at 9:06 AM

    Preach it Famey! And thanks from this proud activist who has stood and marched with OCCUPY against the 1%!!!

    • Saddle_River_NJ
      August 31, 2013 at 4:31 PM

      Kudos! I have a round about involvement with the Fast Food Workers myself. I actually *am* one of the 1% but and very old school. I still believe in the social obligations that one has to give back tremendously to those less fortunate and to build as many strong ladders as possible to enable people to climb ever higher and higher.

  24. Spaghetti Kitten
    August 31, 2013 at 9:07 AM

    PS: I also won’t be around much this Holiday Weekend brought to you by America’s Labor Unions…will be marching with and for them Monday as well!

  25. seagirlz
    August 31, 2013 at 12:02 PM

    I cannot believe people are implying the Giudice’s problems are the banks fault! Those applications require accurate numbers/records for a reason. No I never “fibbed” on an application because if I’m denied then I cannot afford the loan, credit card, home. No wonder people in this country have so many financial issues. People have to adapt to the amount of money they have not the other way around. Fib=lie=trouble

    • Wilbur
      August 31, 2013 at 4:39 PM

      I agree seagirz, we have bought numerous properties in our lifetime and also refinanced and we never considered providing forged documents even if others were doing it. Mainly because it was against the law and the risk was not worth it. Also it was wrong. Parents raised us to be honest and we try to instill that in our own children. If we can’t afford it, we don’t buy it. Simple. I think Teresa and joe wanted a lifestyle of wealth and they took some shortcuts. What’s so sad is she has it now with her cookbooks and business empire that she built. If they didn’t take those shortcuts, all their dreams could have cme true. She obviously has the talent and smarts to succeed so it’s a damn shame. She should beg for the mercy of the court and try for leniency so she can start over. However I think they will make an example of her due to her high visibility. It’s tragic but hopefully her children can learn something from this mess.

    • GPM
      August 31, 2013 at 10:35 PM

      I think you make an excellent point, seagirlz, when you say that a borrower benefits from a denial because then they know they cannot afford the loan. I’d be happy to try to explain the role banks — and the lending system they designed and profited from — played n the Giudice’s problems.

      The Giudices’ loans weren’t approved because they lied on their applications; they were approved because their loan officers didn’t take even the most cursory steps to verify the information provided.

      Think about it: If the loan officers had even ATTEMPTED to verify the information provided on the loan applications — and there are systems that have been in place for decades that would have easily allowed them to do just that — they would have immediately learned that the information was false and the loans wouldn’t have gone through.

      And, as you point out, the immigrant blue-collar Giudices would have ultimately benefited because they would have realized that they couldn’t afford the loan.

      So why DIDN’T these college-educated professional loan officers, whose business it is to make loans and who do that very thing day in and day out, verify the information on the loan applications?

      Because the banks had established A STANDARD INDUSTRY PRACTICE of NOT verifying the information on the loan applications. They wanted those loans to go through and they didn’t care WHAT people put on their applications so long as it looked legitimate to bank regulators, with some (perhaps many) loan officers and brokers even completing the applications and documentation themselves because they knew far better than the borrowers exactly what the numbers needed to be.

      Whoa, you may say — it’s the bank’s money! Of course they’ll want to be sure the debtor can pay it back! Why on earth would bankers fail to verify the information?!

      The reason is simple — they had no intention of holding onto the loans themselves. The banks immediately packaged up the loans they made — good loans, bad loans, it made no difference to them — into multi-million dollar investment trusts that were then sold them to pension plans and other investors.

      (I’m sure many posters here can attest to the fact that they have had a mortgage loan that was sold. That doesn’t mean the loan was bad or that anyone lied on their application, but it illustrates that the standard practice was to “pool” loans and pass the risk of nonpayment from the bank to investors, who frequently hired a different bank to “service” the loan, i.e., collect payments, send out annual statements, etc. The practice is called “securitization.”)

      The FBI became so concerned about this structure — where the people actually making the loans now had no incentive whatsoever to ensure loan quality and their only incentive was to make as many loans as they could so that they could make as much money for themselves as possible — that it testified to Congress in 2004 about how pervasive it had become, referring to it as “an epidemic of mortgage fraud.” Yet Congress did nothing.

      As a result, the banksters were allowed to take their cut of future profits upfront and pass poor loans off on innocent investors, leaving the banksters free to turn around and do the very same thing again . . and again . . . and again. . . and again until it was virtually raining money on them!

      Lehman Brothers was the world leader in making undocumented “liar’s loans.” Its top managers knew that their principal source of income was making fraudulent loans and they also knew that it was necessary that Lehman not document that its liar’s loans were frequently fraudulent. When the federal government and other banks refused to bail Lehman out, it created a massive shock to the world economy.

      But Lehman was hardly the only bad actor to have a piece of this “action.” Nearly every major bank in the world was doing the same thing and, because the economy couldn’t withstand their failure as well, they were bailed out. Indeed, you may have read that Bank of America was recently sued by the Justice Department in connection with $850 million worth of loans that it allegedly misrepresented to investors. The Giudices are one family among millions.

      I think it’s also important to point out that immigrants, minorities and other unsophisticated borrowers were among the most frequent targets of the banksters’ scheme, particularly those who were self-employed and whose income might be difficult to document. These borrowers were frequently deliberately steered toward “undocumented loans” since brokers who provided borrowers with this type of loan earned greatly inflated commissions as the loans themselves carried substantially higher fees and interest rates. There is an excellent example of exactly how such a transaction would take place at http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/01/18/making-a-liars-loan-with-help-from-the-loan-officer/. As the author points out, “Finally, the borrower seems pretty sophisticated. Imagine how the process would work with a less sophisticated one. Would they ask any of the questions?”

      In summary, bankers motivated by greed set up a system that allowed them to prey on the ignorant so that they could defraud the unwitting and yet not one single banker has been criminally prosecuted despite the fact that they and their banks profited to the tune of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS and destroyed countless lives in the process.

  26. NCGal
    • August 31, 2013 at 2:48 PM

      Joe Gorga needs to stop inflating his lips! They are bigger than his wife’s now and sorry to say, Joey doing a pout is just not sexy or cute.

      • NCGal
        August 31, 2013 at 3:24 PM

        He is a very unattractive man. For some time now, I have been feeling that TSIL thinks she can do better than him – now that she is a “star” and all. Hasn’t she already said she wants to move to CA? She has been really ramping up the “Look at me, I’m sexy” act in the last few months.

        It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if she left him at some point- and of course, since she is the Perpetual Victim, it will be his fault.

        On a side note, I know the Enquirer has its detractors. But they also have broken many stories that have turned out to be true. John Edwards comes to mind.

        • August 31, 2013 at 6:41 PM

          TB and TSIL have seemed to aged since they’ve been on the show. I get the same feeling, NCGal, that Tsil is wanting to move on from Tb. I find it suspicious that 2 weeks ago her ex-bff, Jan, said she witnessed Tb slapping Tsil once. Then last week they sold their overpriced monstosity of a house. Rumor has is that Johnny Wright bought the house. This week the NE story about Tsil storming out on Tb for sexting multiple women. If you noticed 2 out of the 3 stories paint Tsil as the “victim” she loves to be! My thought on Johnny Wright is that he fell for Tsil’s “victim” stories. This time it’s not Tre who is the villian it’s Tb. Tb following Tsil everywhere and even introducing her (horribly I might add) during concerts makes him look like a controlling psycho. Which, I think he’s insecure and jealous of Tsil It was, after all, Tb’s sister who helped “launch” Tsil into the public eye. Right now, with the Giudice’s facing prison time, Tsil might have realised that if Tre’s gone she’s nothing. I remember after the Giudice’s were charged their was a story that Tsil and Tb might get a spin off. Then a couple of weeks later it was the Manzo boys who are getting the spinoff. I know I’m off topic here, sorry, but I can’t say that I didn’t see this coming. Regarding N.E. I remember Jan was saying how one of their reporter’s went to her shop to talk to her but she refused. Hmmmm…..

  27. Anonymous
    August 31, 2013 at 6:12 PM

    Fame, thanks for acknowledging what the public chooses to ignore about the lack of culpability for the banks, bankers and mortgage lending as a whole. Without any repercussions or criminal charges what lesson have these folks learned? I find it very disturbing that the Guidices will be scapegoats and the mob mentality screaming for blood ignores the real issue. How much is this going to cost the taxpayers? The investigation? The trial? The possible years in Club Fed? I do believe in justice but it should be applied equally across the board.

  28. August 31, 2013 at 8:22 PM

    I want to share something from my Grace For the Moment book by Max Lucado. I always find his words encouraging.

    “We worry. We worry about the IRS and the SAT and the FBI… We worry that we won’t have enough money we worry that we won’t manage it well. We worry that the world will end before the parking meter expires. We worry what the dog thinks if he sees us step out of the shower. We worry that someday we’ll learn that fat free yogurt was fattening.
    Honestly,now Did God save you so you would fret? Would he teach you to walk just to watch you fall? Would he be nailed to the cross for your sins and then disregard your prayers? Come on. Is Scripture teasing us when it reads, “He has put his angels in charge of you to watch over you wherever you go”? (Ps.91:11) I don’t think so either”

    • Jeannie5233
      August 31, 2013 at 9:29 PM

      Kimberly – your comments and postings touch me so much. Thank you so much (the artwork was stunningly beautiful) and I admire your strength and faith. Yes, His angels are in charge to watch over us and they do.

      And. . . your sleuthing skills are phenomenal!!!

      • August 31, 2013 at 10:49 PM

        Thank you Jeannie for your kindness. My genealogy friends taught me some sleuthing skills. I did one of those test things and encouragement seems to be what I enjoy giving people the most. When I get discouraged, I have to shut the world out and spend time with God. He fills me back up with encouragement.

    • August 31, 2013 at 9:52 PM

      I was taught if you always do the right thing, you never have to worry. I was also told “worry”, as well as anger, harsh curse words, etc., do nothing to change a situation you are worrying about. If you are concerned about a situation, take the steps necessary to change that situation.

      As a mother/grandmother, it is difficult not to worry about you children. I remember the day I stopped “worrying” about my children. My oldest son had just received his driver’s license and offered to pick up his sister at dance class, which I told him ended at 6 pm. The round trip should have taken 10 minutes. Well, from the 20 minute mark, until they returned an hour and 10 minutes later I was a wreck. Remember, this is all before mobile phones. I paced, I looked out of my living room window to see if an ambulance would be passing, I wondered if he had driven the car into a Bayou, I could go on and on. After they arrived home, I asked what took so long. My daughter replied, “The competition team had practice after class and Jamie stayed and talked to Danny (the dance instructor’s son). After dinner, I surrendered my son to his Father in heaven. After my prayers I randomly opened the family Bible that night and placed his picture inside. The words I randomly read on the two pages gave me comfort and I knew I may have given birth to him, but he really belonged to God. I repeated the ritual when each child received their license.

      If one can just refer to a few words in the Lord’s Prayer, “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.” That is how I pray, that whatever the Lord’s will for my life, my children/grandchildren, friends, fame-ily’s lives be done, with the added please help “?” they are having a difficult time.

      Now this one is from my mom. She would tell me (in French) that God gave me all of the power, this matter was in my hands. “And forgive us our trespasses, as WE forgive those that trespass against us.” God would only forgive me as much as I would forgive the persons that had done me wrong.

      In my world, the divine being is God, as most of you know I respect all beliefs.

      I know this post was long, but kays’ subject touched me today. This could have been the day from hell with the obstacles placed before me and my husband, yet, it turned out to be beautiful, wonderful, fantastic day. Just release all of your obstacles to a greater power.

      • Jeannie5233
        August 31, 2013 at 10:08 PM

        Oh, moma! If I knew how to make a heart, I would. This is just beautiful – thank you for sharing this.

      • September 1, 2013 at 1:16 AM

        One of the hardest things for me, has been is dealing with suicide. I have had my own suicidal thoughts in the past and I understand how people get to that point in their heart and mind. I am convinced that over the years, God has brought many broken people into my life. Bruised reeds and smoldering wicks. Now when I look at it, everything appears to be a circle.

        When I met my first husband, his family was dealing with his sister’s suicide. At the time he and I were not sure if there was a God or not. Shortly after we married, I needed an operation. He thought I was going to die and he told me he prayed in the parking lot. Everything worked out and I when I was back home, the phone rang and it was a random call a suicidal man named Jim wanted to talk to someone before he died. I tried to give him hope but I am not sure what ever happened to him.

        My friend Charla was a lesbian and many people at work had issues with her. One day, she brought a bible to work and read it to me on our lunch break. I had tried to read the bible when I was 13 but things were blocking me from embracing any of the words. I have my favorite memories of Charla when we were tired and singing silly songs at work. Very bold and open heart. I could be me around her if you know what I mean. Eventually she became a Christian and started dating a man. I could not understand the negative reaction from people.

        She had painful health issues with the bones in her feet. Her mother had died when she was 15 and she took care of many things around the house and her siblings. Not to long after I met her, she lost her father and then a couple years later her dog died. When things keep piling up it is hard to hold on to hope. I do not know exactly what happened with people at work being more hateful to her than ever and she took her life.

        My father was deflecting his anger from the man who molested me towards my first husband, saying “ I do not like you, and I never will” Three months later my first husband died in a car accident. Some say they do not know why he pulled out in front of the truck. He was on his way to the unemployment office. Some say the road had an ice spot. I knew the car stalled out from time to time so until I get to heaven, it is all a big fat question mark.

        When my father lost his memory and he did not know who I was, I lost hope in ever mending our broken relationship. Then one day, Daddy said Kimberly, Kimberly, Kimberly and he started to sob and I brushed his hair back and comforted him.

        I had already forgiven them all yet the majority of us had the same problem, forgiving ourselves.
        Charla died somewhere between August 30th, and September the 1st of 2001when they found on Labor Day. Therapy has helped me so much. When you stuff things inside, your like a computer overloaded with junk files and you can’t think straight.

        While working on genealogy I found a webpage that my friend Charla had posted on. When I read it, I cried like a baby. Her words were just what I needed to hear because of the things that were happening in my life. “Places change, people change -but Jesus Christ will never change” (Hebrews 13:8)

        God does all kinds of stuff to remind me that He is more than what some people think. Someday will will see all of Him. Someday we will understand everything. Tell people if you feeling hopeless and if you have hope, tell people why.

        • DD
          September 1, 2013 at 6:44 AM

          Kayswhims your story touched me. Sounds like you have been through a tremendous amount of loss.
          My mother was shot in the head in 1991 with a 357 while sleeping and died instantly, it changed the destiny of my entire life. I had to go in afterwards and get just a few of her personal items and it was the most horrific vision I could ever imagine. I was walking across the carpet to her closet and her skull was crunching under my shoes. Brain matter was all over everything in the room. It changed me for life , I went through years of depression. I sought counseling and got through it however it wasn’t the counseling that got me through
          it . In my darkest hours when I didn’t think I could get through another minute I would pray and the lord would take my pain away. I prayed and prayed and prayed. I know now I could have never made it through this if it weren’t for the man above. I understand now that because of my mothers and several other family members deaths I am a better person. I am a more compassionate person and most of all I understand the power of the man above.

          • September 1, 2013 at 9:22 AM

            DD, our senses are very powerful at collecting memories. There are things we struggle with because the things around us day in and day out trigger memories, some are so sweet and we want to hold fast to them, we are afraid they will totally disappear. Other memories haunt us and we try to not them take away our joyful moments.

            One day I saw something in the bible about capturing our thoughts. Most people talked about the scripture in terms of keeping our mind from doing things we don’t want to do, but I saw something else there also. I ask God to help me capture my thoughts because so many memories was stealing my joy within my marriage.

            You are right about therapy. People can help you to a certain point but God goes places people can not tread. Jesus walks through walls and does other things to show us our boundaries do not hold Him back. God can surpass all our understanding and guard our heart and our mind.

            What a blessing it is to find our purpose in all of our pain. A candle can not shine in the darkness without the strike of a match that is rubbed against a hard surface and set ablaze.

            • DD
              September 1, 2013 at 10:27 AM

              Profound statement. ITA. The lord has put me on this earth for a reason. As I have told many people in my life I have taken something that was very special in each person that I have lost and incorporated in myself to better myself through out life. Also so that a piece of them lives on in me. One can only hope that my changes from here on out would be a little easier but if they aren’t than I am be-humbled by the thought that the lord chose me to carry a little piece of the person in who I am. I thank the lord each and everyday for my life and remember what I have been through is Gods master plan.

    • adioslunatic
      September 1, 2013 at 8:14 AM

      @ Kay

      It is amazing how little you worry when you just give things up to God. I am the “worry” queen and the more I give my worries to God the better I feel. EVERYTHING happens for a reason – don’t fight it; just know that God is there and He knows what He is doing.

      Thank you for the excerpt. I must get that book!

      • September 1, 2013 at 11:04 AM

        adioslunatic, I spent the first 30 years of my life keeping my distance from God. If I had a box back then for all of my worries, it would have a label with the words “stuff I am afraid I will lose somehow by what I do or what I don’t do”

        I like to find solutions and I sometimes I still worry that if only I found the magic button, things would be restored that are broken. I don’t like watching people go through pain, but what I really can’t stand is people smiling in the background watching the fruit unfold from their wickedness. Several girls in my family are in therapy now. One is far away from the family on her own and the other is a teenager still at home.

        My mind and my heart seem to have a war when it comes to my mother. I do have to find complete peace about it. I have done all that I can and my eldest sister was with me the last time I spoke to my mother. It is good to have my sister’s support and as a witness for the things said and done at the meeting.

        She seemed very restless and agitated the more I told her about the positive things going on in my life. The negative things she brought up about the way I look did not hurt me for some reason. So far she has found reasons to avoid all contact with me. I am glad I was able to express my love for her at my sister’s house. It gave me a sense of peace. I don’t think I will have complete peace about it until I get to heaven, but God works in mysterious ways.

        • adioslunatic
          September 1, 2013 at 3:12 PM

          Yes, yes he does, K.

          God bless!

  29. elle
    August 31, 2013 at 10:45 PM

    Anyone watch the First Look tonight? Caroline loves horses…insert TSIL joke here.

  30. becca
    August 31, 2013 at 10:52 PM

    That was beautiful. Sometimes when you are having a really bad day it’s easy to forget to give it up to God and He can make all things right. When you can do that it brings so much inner peace. And I am a relative newcomer to the site but everyone is so welcoming it feels like a family. Kinda like home. Thanks everyone!

    • September 1, 2013 at 2:02 AM

      I’m with you Becca! That was beautiful! I have tears in my eyes reading Moma and Kay’s post’s.

      • September 1, 2013 at 11:28 AM

        Ceeesee thank you for all of your comments that I could relate to. It helped me feel at ease knowing someone understood me.

        • September 1, 2013 at 7:53 PM

          Kay, you don’t know how much you helped me understand my little sister. She was diagnosed as having a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I always thought NPD was to “nice” for my sister, which isn’t saying much. When you were describing the characteristics of Destructive Narcissistic Personality it fit my sister’s personality to a T. One good thing about getting “burned” by my sister is that it has brought me closer to God. I prayed numerous times a day when I would start to feel that disgusting feeling of resentment. I read the bible I started to go to church more and I talked to my kids about loving each other, being there when needed and being genuine. Thanks to my sister I have such a good relationship with my kids. Thank-you, again, Kay for sharing so much of your knowledge and experience with us. I feel the same, that I felt more at ease knowing someone understood me. Thankis for that!

    • September 1, 2013 at 11:22 AM

      I agree with everything you said. I would not have found this place had it not been for my disgust over TSIL’s evil ways. There is a lesson for me some where in that statement lol

      “Home is the nicest word there is.”
      ― Laura Ingalls Wilder

  31. Miss Alicat
    September 1, 2013 at 3:26 AM

    Fame, Djna’s going to be on today’s “Oprah: Where are they now” special on OWN, 10pm ET. Supposedly she talks about her feud with Caroljne and Tre’s indictment.

    • AnnieMarie
      September 1, 2013 at 2:12 PM

      Miss alicat or anyone else that will watch, can write a brief smart of what was talked about on here. I won’t be able to watch, but I am curious to her what Dina has to say.

      • AnnieMarie
        September 1, 2013 at 2:16 PM

        Wow, my autocorrect really hates me. I meant to say write a brief summary of what was discussed on Oprah’s show. I’m curious to hear what Dina has to say about it all.

      • Miss Alicat
        September 1, 2013 at 5:22 PM

        I set it to record, just in case I don’t make it that late, was at my cousin’s wedding reception this afternoon and alcohol was consumed.. 🙂 I will recap if Fame doesn’t.

    • September 1, 2013 at 4:29 PM

      I don’t like Oprah (used to love her), but I love Dina so I set my DVR to record.

  32. Jack Hole
    September 1, 2013 at 11:46 AM

    Hmmm, I wonder how Andy is going to feel about this? I am not sure that Oprah will play his game and skew/frame things for him—-I PRAAAAAAAYYYYY NOT!!!!! Let the truth start coming out!!!!!!!!!!

  33. September 1, 2013 at 12:08 PM

    Off topic, my wonderful husband has been using his smoker, smoking ribs, chicken, and God only knows what else for 2 days now. My neighbors and myself are just sick of the smell, but we all know the end results are the making for a fabulous p. a. r. t. y . with which we all give Thanks for. Having said this…I’m gonna eat a good ‘ol hotdog that hasn’t been smoked. WAKE UP AMERICA, and don’t forget the Apple Pie.(The kind you eat or drink) *.*

    • September 1, 2013 at 2:57 PM

      I love the smell of the smoker going! I can’t wait until it cools of a bit so my hubby will smoke more often.

  34. dubbalicious
    September 1, 2013 at 5:34 PM

    OT. One of our lovely friends here at FW, was called out on another site ( by the site owner no less) for writing in all caps. If I’m correct..this person does so due to poor vision. I found it to be unnecessary, disrespectful and just plain ignorant. I should have defended her immediately however, I never intentionally set myself up to be verbally attacked… So here I am..venting here!! I thought it was really, really shitty!!

    • tulip
      September 3, 2013 at 3:53 PM

      dubbalicious, was it SH? Something weird is going on there. I went to her site and got a message that it is private and I need to have a word press account. I don’t like word press, and never created an account. I always just logged in and used my usual username and email every time I made a comment and never had any problems. I guess I won’t be visiting her blog anymore if I have to create a wordpress account just to get in.

  35. September 1, 2013 at 6:44 PM

    So true! How is the banks get away with this shit?

  36. Diane Rockwell
    September 2, 2013 at 3:07 PM

    I have watched this show since the debut so I remember the sit down between Danielle and Caroline. When I watched this episode I remembered Caroline demanding Danielle drop the charges against Ashlee. At the time I thought it was a weird way to negotiate because Caroline offered Danielle nothing and she was very rude to her. I would love to know if this is really why Caroline testified against Danielle.
    When Joe finally had enough of Caroline and told her off, I can remember Caroline saying Al would destroy Juicy. Now Joe is facing major charges for MINOR infractions. I wonder if the Manzo’s have anything to do with it? Just another conspiracy theory.

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